Kentucky Sports Radio
[Moderated by Matt Jones, Drew Franklin and Tyler Thompson]
[Moderated by Matt Jones, Drew Franklin and Tyler Thompson]
@wildcatnews amazing how much talent this state produced in ’60s and how little it produces now in contrast
— Mark Story (@markcstory) July 15, 2012
After the inaugural class of the Kentucky High School Basketball Hall of Fame was inducted this weekend, a debate was sparked on Twitter by Kentucky media speculating on reasons why the state was once was able to produce so much home-grown talent and no longer is able to do so. Oscar Combs, Mark Story, and our own Matt Jones joined in on the discussion, but a consensus was not made between the three. Nobody could seem to come up with a reason that is unique to only Kentucky that would explain why we once developed so much high level talent and no longer do. There’s no doubt that the number of overall D-1 recruits from Kentucky is way down, but I’d argue that Kentucky is still developing top level players as well as they ever have. Fewer players from Kentucky are making it on D-1 rosters, for whatever reason, but the ones that DO make it have had a lot of recent success. Since the turn of the new millennium, we haven’t seen a large number of D-1 recruits come out of the state in any given year, but we’ve had our fair share of college stars and NBA success stories.
There was once a time when UK and UofL both had rosters fielded of primarily in-state talent, but recruiting today isn’t what it was fifty years ago. Extensive recruiting coverage on the internet and the AAU circuit, among other reasons, has pushed all D-1 schools to recruit nationally and from outside of their backyards and state boundaries. It’s not just Kentucky, or Calipari, or the top programs who recruit nationally–everyone does. Once upon a time, it was considered shocking that Adoph Rupp had signed a player all the way from New York City by the name of Pat Riley. Today, it’s the exact opposite–we are accustomed to signing players from New York, such as Ramel Bradley and Doron Lamb, but eyebrows are actually raised when we offer a scholarship to an in-state kid like Derek Willis. But let’s not forget about the instate kids who have gone elsewhere and have done big things for other programs, such as Chris Lofton and Shelvin Mack. Also, we’ve even lost some great players who have transferred to out-of-state high schools (Rajon Rondo and even OJ Mayo, who played H.S. ball here, but never lived here), something that would never have happened years ago. Lofton, Mack, Rondo, and now Darius Miller arguably have had as much success as any collection of Kentucky-born players over the years.
Below, I have separated the 11 male athletes who were nominated into the state’s basketball Hall of Fame this weekend by the decade in which they played high school ball:
• 1940s: Ralph Beard, Wah Wah Jones, Cliff Hagan.
• 1950s: “King” Kelly Coleman
• 1960s: Wes Unseld, Clem Haskins
• 1970s: Darrell Griffith, Jim McDaniels, Geri Grigsby
• 1980s: Rex Chapman, Richie Farmer
The 1940′s brought us three UK legends who are now hanging from the rafters in Rupp, including NBA Hall of Famer Cliff Hagan. The 1950′s were highlighted by “King” Kelly Coleman, who was considered the greatest high school basketball player ever from Kentucky at his time, but a successful college and pro career never materialized for Coleman due partly to alcoholism and an amateurism scandal. In the 1960′s, another NBA Hall of Famer came out of the state: Senaca and UofL star Wes Unseld. Another UofL star, Darrell Griffith, highlighted the 1970′s era of Kentucky high school basketball, and the 1980′s were led by two UK greats in Rex Chapman and Richie Farmer.
Granted, I am only 25 years old and didn’t watch any of those guys play (Richie Farmer was a high school senior when I was a 1-year-old), I still think that the best players to come out of our state since the 2000′s are nothing to sneeze at, even in comparison to this weekend’s Hall of Fame inductees.
• 2000-present: Rajon Rondo, Chris Lofton, Shelvin Mack, Darius Miller
I’m not sure if Rondo will ever make the Kentucky High School Basketball Hall of Fame since he finished up at Oak Hill Academy in Virginia, but he is from the state, played at UK, and could possibly be a future NBA Hall of Famer. Lofton and Mack will never be considered legends in this state to the same degree as Rex Chapman and Richie Farmer, but what if they had gone to UK? What if Shelvin Mack, who just finished his rookie season with the Wizards, had led Kentucky to two straight Final Four’s instead of Butler? Lofton appeared destined to the NBA as well throughout his All-American career at Tennessee, before being diagnosed and fighting through cancer. Then, of course, there’s the story of Darius Miller, who became the first player to win Kentucky Mr. Basketball, win a Kentucky state championship, and win a National Championship at UK. These four guys, with the exception of Darius, are not celebrated in the same way as the great players from the state have been before them (due mostly to the fact that only 2 of them played at UK), but the four great Kentucky players since the 2000′s have combined for one possible NBA Hall of Fame career, an NBA Championship, three NBA All-Star appearances, two AP NCAA All-American seasons, four NCAA Final Fours, and one NCAA National Championship. That’s not too shabby.
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July 16th, 2012 at 10:37 am
Very misleading blog. There is no question that the state produces less talent now than in the past. Forget NBA players for a second, how about just talking about Top Tier NCAA D-1 players? There are a few expections, but there are seldom any players in the state that compete for a Top 10 team. The HOF list is not indicitive of talent across the board. And of your 2000 to present list, Rondo is the only one that has, or will have, a very good NBA career.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Take a look at the Indiana vs. Kentucky high school games.
Who gets crushed??
Kentucky is producing LESS talent. It’s obvious.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:43 am
OJ Mayo also played Kentucky ball for Rose Hill, although he ended his pre-college career out-of-state.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:44 am
I’ll pull the race card. Basketball is played 100% differently than it was 50 years ago when white kids with good jumpshots were the cream of the crop. Kentucky will forever have those type of players. What Kentucky has a shortage of, is freakishly-athletic kids that will just blow past you all day every day a la NYC
July 16th, 2012 at 10:49 am
Darius was the first Mr. basketball since 1984 to get drafted. The state is not producing talent. Like #2 said, Kentucky is getting killed in the Kentucky/Indiana game. Just look at the rosters for those games. Indiana is producing far more high D-1 players than Kentucky.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:50 am
Sorry type, 1994.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:50 am
Man I am struggling, typo.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:57 am
How many top 20 commitments from the 2013 class does Kentucky currently have? How is that monster class shaping up for us?
July 16th, 2012 at 11:04 am
It’s strictly population related. More people, more athletes, better competition equals more D1 players.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:05 am
I think Jim McDaniel played his HS basketball in the ’60s, not the ’70s.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:06 am
#8 Are you getting tired of typing that or do you just have it set up to copy and paste?
The 2013 class will be just fine. We have had the top class 3 years in a row and the only time we have had someone commit this early was Daniel Orton.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:13 am
Rondo played for two years at Louisville’s Eastern High School. It counts.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:18 am
I know he wasn’t nominated but any list of 80′s Kentucky High School basketball stars that doesn’t include Alan Houston is a farce. His battles with Richie were awesome – plus he had a pretty damn successful post high school career.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:22 am
Gotta agree with Steely.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:31 am
Its really quite simple. Its a combination of population density and no pro sports markets in the area. #9 is right that the more dense the population, the better the chance an athlete is going to pop up. The assortment of talent he plays against is just higher in the inner city because there is more people. I also happen to think that advertising plays a huge role in the formation of these kids. In the cities with pro sports teams, pro ball players are plastered on the sides of buildings, marketing is really heavy, and the kids are inundated with way more media. They want to emulate that. Definitely not as big a role as population density, but it plays one.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:32 am
Dejuan Wheat, Allen Houston, Manuel Forrest, Ervin Stepp to name a few are worthy.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:38 am
is it me or is Derek Anderson not from Louisville?? Also, Greg Barnes from UH was a solid player in the ACC for Clemson
Travis Ford, Goose Givens, James Lee.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:47 am
Pat Riley was from Schenectady, New York, not New York City.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:53 am
jack givens was as dominant as any player i ever saw. watched him get 26 rebounds in one game. 41 points in the national championship
July 16th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Of course there are really good players that come from this state, but on a year in year out basis it is not happening.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
I agree with #9.
I lived in Georgia 2/3rds of my life. Most people do not think of Georgia (besides metro Atlanta) being heavy populated but it is. Georgia is like the 8th or 9th most populated state. Just Fulton, Cobb, Dekalb, Clayton, and Gwinnett county’s down here would equal or make up the entire population in KY. Georgia produce’s more football talent per capita than Florida, Cali, or Texas which of course have higher population’s than GA. Every year in the MLB draft it’s loaded with kids who are from GA. Not this last NBA draft but the one the year before 4 out of the 60 picks were kids who played high school ball in Georgia. The NBA is littered with players from GA. I mean Ga even produce’s top soccer talent as well. Clint Mathis and Josh Wolf both played on the U.S. National team a few years ago are from Ga. Obviously with more people the chance’s are you will have more talent.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
How do you mention Richie Farmer and leave Jack Givens, Dirk Minnifield and Mel Turpin off your list? Jeez..
July 16th, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Alan Houston was one of the best high school players in America when he was at Ballard High School. Surprises me he wasn’t inducted right off the bat.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
KHSAA rules are the reason for less talent being developed.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
It’s a combination of the change in the country allowing African-Americans to play sports, a relatively small African-American population in Ky, and other states African-American population growing faster than Ky.
African-Americans began entering college sports in the 60′s, picked up steam in the 70′s, and were dominating in the 80′s. This period coincides with the decline in Ky home-grown talent because of the smaller African-American population in Ky.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
The fact Allen Houston wasn’t named is embarrassing.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Unless I dreamed it, and I don’t think I did. Anthony Epps also was Mr. Basketball, led his high school team (Marion County) to the state championship, and led UK to the national championship as point guard.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Geri Grigsby is a female.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
No love for Johnny Cox from Hazard? Member of the ’58 championship team, All American.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Lots of good points here (population being the main one). But also consider that these “prep” schools (like Oak Hill) take kids from all over the country. Many of Kentucky’s best players are likely not to play most of their HS ball in Kentucky even if the family is still here. For example, Rondo. I’m sure there are and will be in the future many others.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Hagen was early fifties.Frank Ramsey also…..60′s Mike Redd, Dwight and Greg Smith,Charlie Douglas,Sam Smith, Dallas Thorton, George Tinsley, Wes Unseld, Clem Haskins and Randy Embry…..not bad!
July 16th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
Dalles Thorton.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Redd could have played for anyone.
July 16th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Anthony Epps was not a Mr. Basketball. The honors for that year went to Jason Osborne from Male High. A UofL flameout.
July 16th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
27) – You dreamed it. Epps was never Mr basketball
July 16th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Busing in Louisville ruined the biggest source of basketball talent. We haven’t seen talented teams, like Louisville once produced, since the early 70′s.
July 16th, 2012 at 2:54 pm
I think population is part of the problem, but there are other non-population based explanations that I might throw in here. We lack substantial metro centers that draw population in from surrounding areas. We have Louisville and Lexington and thats it. Other states have major metro areas that draw in population and draw in talent. More of the U.S. population lives in Urban areas than ever before and it is the urban areas that produce a large proportion of the basketball talent. Kentucky is a rural state that ranks high in poverty, in fact we have several of the poorest counties in all of the U.S., and this likely makes a substantial percentage of our available population poor candidates for NBA/College level basketball. We also have many health related issues that cut into our talent pool. We have significant problems with diabetes, cancer, cigarette smoking, heart disease, etc. Of course, there are examples of talented players coming from poor environments that might include some of these problems, but when we seek out general explanation for why our state does not produce talent we must look to things that affect the population in general.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Allan Houston should definately be on the list he has an olympic gold medal from 2000. Jack goose Givens and James Lee should be on the list with Derek Anderson. What about pelphrey and feldhaus along with minniefield and turpin.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
I think Kentucky will produce great talent like they have in the past. History repeats itself, right? In time… there will be great talent coming from the Bluegrass once again.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
I agree that Allan Houston has to be on this list. Someone else that is alway forgotten when discussing more recent highly successful players from Kentucky is Charles Bubba Wells, the most prolific scorer in OVC history. Had he not had to play on a surgically rebuilt let his senior season, the Russellville native would probably have flourished in the NBA as well. As it was he had a remarkable college career and was Recognized by Marty Blake as the best offensive player entering the draft his senior year, despite playing with rods in his tibia.
While focus almost always seems to be on Loiuisville and Lexington products, players like Wells, Beard, Hagan, and Chapman prove time and again that western Kentucky produces great talent as well.
July 16th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Dave Cowens, Newport Central Catholic, Florida State, Boston Celtics frm the 1960′s
July 16th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
This post is way off. High School basketball talent is definitely way down in Kentucky since the 1980s and early ’90s. From ’78-93, the state produced 11 McDonald’s All-Americans, but only one since–Carlos Hurt (2001), who was a transplant who played only his senior year in Kentucky. Look no farther than our little brothers in Louisville, whose program Denny Crum built by monopolizing the top Louisville recruits and filling in his roster with national talent. His two title teams were led by local talent (Darrell Griffith and Jerry Eaves in ’80; Herb Crook, Tony Kimbro, Jeff Hall in ’86). Throughout his tenure, he built his roster with local impact players like Jim Price, Phil Bond, Wesley Cox, Terry Howard, Rick Wilson, Manual Forrest, Keith Williams, Felton Spencer, DeJaun Wheat, Dwayne Morton, Jason Osborne, et al. Hence, why it was such a huge deal when UK signed Winston Bennett out of Lou Male in 1983. And guys like Allan Houston, Jeff Lamp and Vince Taylor were impact players out of state. The state simply doesn’t produce that kind of talent consistently anymore, which was one reason for Denny Crum’s demise in the late ’90s. Joe B. Hall seemed ahead of the curve by focusing his recruiting on a national basis and plucking any top in-state talent outside of Louisville. Adding spring football practice in the state of Kentucky in the mid-’90s may have had some impact on kids choosing to spend more time on football than basketball. Since the mid-90s, Kentucky has produced more national football talent (Shaun Alexander, Tim Couch, Chris Redman, Dennis Johnson, Micah Johnson, et al) than national basketball talent.
July 16th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
dont forget about Stephon Pettigrew out of e-town, played ball at elizabethtown high and went on to play at WKU…is being looked at ny NBA teams as we speak
July 16th, 2012 at 6:06 pm
I know this was just a general list of extraordinary basketball players during their times at UK but we must all remember the man who started the term “Sixth Man,” Mr. Frank Ramsey. I know he doesn’t care about the recognition but as someone who was one of the more successful hoopsters to come from Kentucky I just want to give him a shout out.
July 16th, 2012 at 6:32 pm
#41 You read my mind. Big Red deserves a nod here.
July 16th, 2012 at 6:57 pm
Butch Beard from Breckinridge County. He did it all–great high school career, great in-state college career at U of L, and solid NBA carrer.
July 16th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
#45-once saw Cowens break up a fight by holding a guy up over his head by the dudes shirt collar. Would not let him back down until the guy said “please”. He was a strong MF when he came out of Fla. State.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Scott Draud not mentioned??
Ninth Region’s all-time leading male scorer with 2,865 points during his four-year varsity career, Draud still holds 11 other records – all coming before the era of the 3-point field goal. Included in those records: Most Single-Season Points (1,086); Most Single Games Points scored (69 vs. Holmes); Highest Season Scoring Average (35.3), and Most Consecutive Games Over 20 Points (67).
Draud is the only player in Kentucky High School history to lead the state in scoring in back-to-back years (30.5 in 1985, 35.3 in 1986). He was the nation’s seventh-leading scorer as a senior. He was a USA Today and Street & Smith honorable mention All-American; two-time Player of the Year by the Kentucky Post and Kentucky Enquirer, First Team all-state by the Louisville Courier-Journal, Lexington Herald Leader, Associated Press and United Press International.